Scaling a global photography business

Bruce Croxon (00:00): Hi, and welcome back to the Export Impact Podcast, brought to you by Export Development Canada, EDC. My name is Bruce Croxon and I'm the host of the podcast. And today we're speaking with two amazing entrepreneurs who have redefined what it means to hire a photographer to capture special moments.

We're joined by Nicole Smith, founder and CEO of Flytographer and Paulina Cameron, the company's Chief Operating Officer. Flytographer is a Canadian based brand that's built a global network of more than 600 professional photographers, giving travelers the chance to capture beautiful vacation memories all over the world. We'll dive into how this woman-owned business grew beyond Canada, what it takes to manage a network in more than 300 destinations, and how they're navigating global travel trends and uncertainty today.

I’d like to begin today’s episode by acknowledging that we’re recording from my office in Toronto, which is on the traditional unceded territory of Many Nations, including the Missassaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples, and is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Metis. We value taking this moment to deepen the appreciation of our Indigenous communities, wherever we are, and to remind ourselves of our shared debt to Canada’s First Peoples.

Welcome to the show, Nicole and Paulina. Thrilled to have you. Let's just kick things off by telling our listeners a little bit about the business. How did the business model come together, particularly, I guess, the challenge of assembling a global network of photographers?

Nicole Smith (01:44): Thanks for having us here. So Flytographer started back in 2013 and it was really to solve the problem of your, on a special vacation and you end up coming home with all these awkward selfies or photos from strangers. And so really, the spirit behind a Flytographer is to come home with one beautiful memory that takes you back to that city and has like the beauty of the city, the landmarks of the city in the backdrop, and the people that matter. So you look at the photo and you really go back to that feeling. And so that happened to me.

I was in Paris with my best friend and that's what I ended up coming back with this one great photo of us together. And I thought, well, how do I enable other people and myself to do this on future trips? And we essentially created the market.

So there was no market for easily booking a local trusted photographer in destinations all over the world in a really turnkey way. And so in the early days when as you know, in your first market, there's no roadmap, there's no blueprint, so you just have to do a lot of trial and error and figure things out. So I was literally going on Craigslist and like trying to interview photographers in Paris or Buenos Air, et cetera, trying to get friends of mine who were traveling to do test shoots and like try to figure out the model and how it could work.

And so the early days was a lot of just testing and trying and trying to understand like, did people wanna pay money for this? It was something that was valuable in both sides of the marketplace, customers and photographers. And so, you know, I was working full-time at Microsoft and doing this in the morning before work or after work. And so it started really slow, but it really was an organic start of finding trusted vetted amazing photographers who needed extra work, like gig work; maybe they were a wedding photographer, for example, and putting up a website to see if people, customers would book them. And so that's sort of the early days of how it started.

Bruce Croxon (03:39): It sounds like logistics is a big part of it, right? I mean, in a marketplace, even though you put people together, you have to arrange for them to meet. And I'm assuming that the site handles all the payments and that kind of thing, and then you pay the photographer...you collect and then pay the photographer on the other end. Is that the basic essence of how the transaction works?

Nicole Smith (03:59): That's exactly it. So we take the money from the client and then after the shoot we pay the photographer once photos have been delivered and sent to our backend platform. In the early days, we didn't have a platform, we didn't actually have technology for the first two or three years. It was Wizard of Oz, Bubble Garmin, like Excel spreadsheets and webhooks and email and just really figuring out what is it that we need to solve for here. Today, we have a dev team and we have a robust platform for booking and for photo delivery, customer service. And so yeah, it's evolved a lot in the last 12 years.

Bruce Croxon (04:34): I also noticed, you know, as I was looking at your website and you know, I noticed that your team is 90% women and a key mission of your business is to get more moms in the photos. And I was sitting there thinking, you know what? You're right. It's usually the moms that are taking the pictures and they're not in them so that's the obvious one. But is it also moms that make most of the vacation decisions and work out the logistics as well? And therefore you're targeting them as they make those decisions and hopefully that includes hiring a photographer?

Nicole Smith (05:07): I would say 80% of our customers are women and a big chunk of those are moms who are the ones always chronicling and thinking about capturing family memories. And then what ends up happening is there's no evidence of them because they're the ones behind the camera, they're not in front of the camera. And so a mission for us is they're the heart of the story. They need to be in the photos. And so we've actually captured more than 30,000 moms and gotten them back into the photo through Flytographer. So it's something we're really passionate about. Pauline and I are both moms and for me, I look back at my mom, she's not in any of the photos. She's kind of a ghost because she was the one behind the camera to really on a mission to help bring more awareness to that.

Bruce Croxon (05:45): So it's interesting when I hear this, my first larger than life operating experience was a dating site. I was the founder of one of the first dating sites in the world. And ironically, our strategy was all about making women feel comfortable because we realized if we could create a space where women felt comfortable, then the men would follow, you know, well without the women, we didn't have a business. So I'm curious that gender targeting, if you will, or bias, how does that show up in how you market or talk to the audience, share with us like the difference between a gender-based strategy and just a blanket, hey, here's what we do, anybody interested click here.

Nicole Smith (06:28): The thing about Flytographer is that it's like Millennials to grandparent this, people that value memories value travel, but there are kind of three key audiences that make up a lot of our bookings. So moms that's probably 40% of our bookings are the moms that are wanting to get back in the photo. And then around 10 to 15% are proposals and it's majority like a 98% of those are men. And so those are guys that are planning a proposal in a different city quite often and wanna make sure that the moment goes off without a hitch, especially if they're like proposing in Barcelona for example. And so our team has always loved capturing those like, because that's such a big moment in someone's life and be able to capture that and preserve it and freeze that forever. So we have a lot of men that come through us there.

But then the other one is just couples celebrating milestone moments. And so that could be a honeymoon or a baby, like first baby. So while it is more women that book it, we are seeing more men book and especially the ones that come in on the proposal, they've realized the value of beautiful photos of people that matter in your life. And so, I think when they get in front of the camera and they realize that that one hour is gonna result in these literally art of your family, like beautiful photos.

But the thing that always surprises them is that one hour with that local photographer becomes a highlight of the trip because they're rubbing elbows with a local who is excited to host them around their city, tell them tips. And my biggest tip to anyone walking a shoot is do it on your first day because you're gonna get valuable tips that you can use for the rest of your trip. You're also gonna have your memories like secured, locked and loaded. You can be more present and put your camera away for the rest of the trip.

Bruce Croxon (08:15): That makes a lot of sense. You're making a friend right outta the gate. And has your experience with the site just quickly been that people book for an hour or two or do you find people having a photographer trail them around for their entire journey?

Nicole Smith (08:30): Oh no, no. I'd say the average is an hour.

Bruce Croxon (08:32): Okay. So it's occasion-specific, we're gonna do this at this time, I really want to capture this.

Nicole Smith (08:37): Yeah, it's almost always like we're gonna meet in this iconic part of the city or on this particular beach in Maui. Japan's one of our fastest growing markets. And so they're like, yeah, we're gonna meet at the bamboo forest or we're gonna meet at this particular temple. So on our website, we have the most photogenic roots for every city, all 370. And so you can see examples of other customers that have shot there at different times of year, different lights, times of day, different big groups, small groups, you know, solo travelers. So you can really imagine what that backdrop is gonna be like because I always call it the third character of the story. It's like the third person is like the beautiful Parisian architecture or whatever that reminds you of that trip. So yeah, that's a big part of it.

Bruce Croxon (09:21): So I'll pick up on what you just said that you know, Japan is your fastest growing market. Let's shift gears and talk about the export part of this business given that you know, this is EDC and this is a big part of what they do and try and support. I mean, how did you decide which markets to enter first? Do some markets work better than others? Why is Japan growing so quickly right now? Is it just because it's a popular destination or is there something else at play? So how did you sift through where to start and where to put your attention?

Nicole Smith (09:53): So in 2013 when I launched, it was just me and and very limited hours and zero budget. I started with what are the top like 10 to 12 tourist destinations that people are traveling to, Americans and Canadians specifically. And of those which ones have really iconic landmarks or something that people would wanna take a memory of? And then the other factor was do they have a large supply of creatives or photographers in that destination that speak English well?

And so those were the pieces that kind of came together for the first, I think we launched with 18 cities back in 2013. And then as we've expanded beyond there, it's a combination of where are people traveling, where are the travelers going? A mix of like the most famous ones that we all know as well as some off the beaten track ones or up and coming ones. And so we look at trend reports and data and then, you know, Japan, like we talked about, is just booming right now. And so we have multiple cities that, you know, Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, that are seeing a lot of growth as a lot of travelers are wanting to go there and capture memories there. So it's a mix of all those different things.

Bruce Croxon (11:06): And you know, listen, I mean nobody expands outside of their home turf without running into surprises and challenges and things that you didn't necessarily expect. Can you share with our listeners some of the key challenges you faced as you started to look outside your borders and whether they be regulatory, culturally, cultural challenges, operational challenges, and what steps you took to mitigate them?

Nicole Smith (11:32): I'll share a couple. So I'll share like first of all cultural, like when you are talking to photographers all over the world and all of these different locations, you have to make sure you're not being ethnocentric and thinking your way is the best way. And so it's the balance of like when you're recruiting people or coaching people, it's almost like a Venn diagram between like, here are the values that we have as a company and you need to kind of be inside of that. One of those being we're inclusive so you need to be comfortable photographing same sex couples. Like these are the issues that kind of can pop up and if there's not alignment there, it's not gonna be a fit. And in some cultures and in some places that, you know, there's different expectations around that. But then there's also the customer service aspect and communication style.

So we might have some cultures where people are a bit more direct or a bit more abrupt and then other cultures where they'll go in circles. So it's like trying to find that balance between what's expected in a Flytographer experience and make that as consistent as possible globally while also allowing space for local flavor and like local touches.

And so we look at tools like obviously we recruit with really specific guidelines, but then we also coach. And so there's opportunities to coach some of our photographers who've never interacted with Americans or Canadians on like what their expectations are and how we can kind of find that balance around that. So culturally, there's like a lot of work that has to be done when you're rolling something globally that people that do a Flytographer shoot in Japan or London, they're expecting the same quality of service, but they're also like loving that there's that local aspect.

So you really have to kind of balance those two and have clear expectations and value-driven hiring, but also tools to monitor feedback so that you can coach or in some cases off-board people that aren't a fit. But I think the other part is the more of the train tracks of the operational side. And I remember in the early days, like I paid every photographer personally by PayPal and initially, it was like my personal PayPal and then it became like a business PayPal. And then, you know, as we started to scale, we had like so many micro payments that were happening over PayPal and we were like maybe at like one or 2 million a year at that point.

And there came a day where, and we would pay our photographers every week. So every Tuesday we would pay whatever the shoots were. And I remember this one moment happened where PayPal locked us out. I think there was like some words in some of the PayPal transactions where we were like, you're shooting this person on this date in Quebec City and I think we got flagged for terrorism or something. I don't even know to this day what happened. But we couldn't get access to anyone at PayPal to help us unlock the account. And so there was a four-week period where I could not pay any of my photographers anywhere in the world and it was a real trying moment for the brand.

And you know, so immediately we looked at, okay, what are some other payment...like it's time to upgrade like the the payment processing tool and the distribution tool. And so we ended up migrating to this tool to pay our photographers, which was way better. But in the meantime I had to go to my community and say, so here's where we're at and and be really transparent. And because we had built so much goodwill over the years and there was so much trust, they stuck with us over that four-week period where they didn't get paid. And it turned into this moment of like, thank goodness we had developed and invested so much in the community so that when this happened they were like, that's okay, we're with you, we trust you and then, we get to the other side of it. But those are some of the things when you're trying to send micropayments out globally, it's complicated.

Bruce Croxon (15:22): What struck me was your first example around the culture. You know, we're sort of coached to not generalize about cultures because everything's unique and different. Don't judge a book by its cover, but we all come from somewhere and we grow up in different societal norms. How can you not develop characteristics that you can generalize about and here in a business you've had to do so. I find that like such a microcosm of you probably your next venture should write a book on the different cultures around the globe as seen through the lens of this business. Like it's that's so cool.

How has Export Development Canada played a role in supporting your expansion efforts? How have you worked with the EDC?

Paulina Cameron (16:09): Yeah, one of the things that we really love about EDC is that there are so many resources that they have and I think they do an excellent job of distributing and checking in and letting you know, hey, let's catch up and learn more about your business now. Because they're always changing and evolving. I swear a year can go by and new things crop up. So one of the most important early pieces that EDC supported Flytographer with is supporting our joint line of credits that EDC backs and underwrites with our bank, our financial institution. And I mean anyone who's growing and scaling a business knows that having access to a line of credit is so valuable, so important.

Our business is seasonal, it follows the seasons of travel. And so we see our highest book shoot numbers during the months of April, kind of to end of September. And so cashflow and managing that on an ongoing basis is something we keep an eye to and lines of credit are one of the most important pieces to support that. And especially in the early days when you're building up the cash buffer, that's a really important piece. And I know respectively we've followed so many sessions, workshops, webinars that we've gone to to know, hey, this is an opportunity, this is available. And I have to say, just knowing that there's someone you can reach out to when you have an account manager that you can say, 'Hey, we're thinking about this in the business or this is coming up, is there anything you're aware that we can tap into' is so valuable.

Bruce Croxon (17:31): Yes, it's nice to know somebody's got your back, for sure. Listen, we're obviously in very interesting and turbulent times. You've been around 13 years as a business or 12 years I guess, and I'm sure in that time you've had different, you know, whether it be geopolitical or macroeconomic or socioeconomic things impact the business and people's propensity to travel, let alone spend. How are you navigating what's going on today? You know, the first thing that pops to my mind is as Canadians, we're not all over the US these days. So I would imagine that some of your popular spring destinations in the US might not mention pandemics, no one's going anywhere. Hey, send a photographer in to take a picture of my living room. You know? Yeah. That must have been challenging.

Nicole Smith (18:19): Yeah, that was like, that was the ultimate beast master challenge. So for that particular moment, I'd never baked into my strategy. The entire world stops traveling once I thought, oh, I'm so diversified. 'cause If like something happens in Europe, we can go to Asia. And so what I learned through the pandemic and navigating that was to focus on what can I control in this particular moment based on the information that I have at this time. And so that was a really good training ground and it forced us to move to profitability. It forced us to like really become lean and intentional about where we were at making investments.

And so I think that sort of the work that had to be done in order to survive...I mean we laid off 80% of our team, shrunk to like almost nothing, like zero sales for months on end. And so being able to kind of survive something like that, you build scar tissue and skills. And so in this moment in time when there's a lot of uncertainty, both geopolitically and economically, a lot of consumers are waiting and they're pausing their discretionary spend because they just don't know, am I gonna lose my job? What's going on with tariffs? And so we're seeing that slow down. We saw that in Q1, and so many of our peers in the industry have also shared that that's happening as well.

And so I think again, in moments like this, it's focusing on what can I control? Where can we pull back on spend that's not directly driving growth or critical, where can we have more flexibility around, you know, vendors or seasonal like kind of support to help drive the business? And then most importantly, what matters to our customers? Where are they at right now? And how do we find the way to meet them where they're at and drive where those customers that have those special milestones are still traveling. Focusing on on those audiences, for example.

And so, yeah, I think the big thing and Paulina will talk about this is that we're really pushing into expanding our distribution channels a lot and our distribution partners so that it's not just us trying to find customers to come to our website, but we're trying to meet people who are already planning travel through these distribution channels. So yeah, those are some of the things that we're working on.

Bruce Croxon (20:28): Paulina, why don't you talk a little bit about that, your distribution channels and how you're expanding that way?

Paulina Cameron (20:34): Yeah, it's so interesting because up until this point in time, about 97% of our businesses come directly through consumers. And so we've gotten to know those customers really well and as we look to continue to grow, finding travelers in places that they're already going and are already engaging with is such an opportunity.

We recently saw a study that talked about travel advisors making up 25% over the coming years of all booked travel. And so we really see an opportunity to engage in relationships there and meet customers where they're already engaging with a travel professional who can recommend a photo shoot. Because one of the interesting things is, unless someone has done it or has heard directly from someone who has done it, not a lot of people yet still think about actually doing a photo shoot as part of their trip. They might think of a tour, they obviously think about, you know, the accommodations and the bookings, but it's not something that's immediately associated. And yet, as Nicole said, it is often the biggest highlight of the trip, let alone it increases the ROI of the trip because of what you get back from it.

And so working with a one to many approach, working with travel advisors who are already talking to their clients and who can add that to their itinerary, add it as a recommendation, and at the end of the day, it's a win for them as well because we know that when a customer has an added value experience as part of their trip, their loyalty increases to both that individual and that customer.

So that's everything from travel advisors to, we're looking at hotels to online booking sites, any place that really is already touching these customers and these folks are often ones that are seeking out experiences. We're launching soon on Airbnb experiences. And that's another place where, you know, there's lots of families that are looking and booking and going into it and are specifically seeking out something unique, something that they can add to that will be memorable for them.

Bruce Croxon (22:29): That makes a lot of sense. You know, one thing that struck me when I was thinking about your business, my ex-wife is a professional photographer, grew up shooting with her best friend who's a professional photographer. And the biggest threat that that industry from their perspective have gone through has been the advent of the smartphone, right? As the technology has gotten so much better. Don't get me wrong, you still can't teach an eye and any good photographer you can tell, right? I mean, no amount of technology is gonna compose a shot like a pro. But has that been a factor? Like people, what do I need a pro for? I mean I, I'm a pro now because I've got such great tech. Has that been a macro influence on you guys at all? Or is it more about the moment and I can't take a shot with me in it no matter how long my arm is for the selfie kind of thing?

Nicole Smith (23:20): I'd say it's like not an or, but an and so like for example, it's really hard to take a great photo on a special trip and do a selfie or it's just not gonna be the same. And so even if your camera's good, it means that someone's sacrificing, they're not in the photo or it's just their arm or whatnot. And so I think for these memorable trips, you're gonna wanna, you know, have something that is like you're gonna put on your wall, right? And so that's where having that third party, that photographer really makes the difference and it's professional and beautifully lit and all that.

But I also think there's place for like take your own photos and bring them together, right? They tell that full story of your trip. So that's how I would look at it. It's just different, the quality of a professional and the experience of spending that one hour with like Wedo(?) in Rome, you can't compete with that.

Paulina Cameron (24:12): Yeah, I'd add to that because I think it's also part of the experience of being on the receiving end of a photographer's care as well, not only are there pros, it taking the photos, but also of helping you pose, making sure that your rumpi teen looks nicely at the camera once or that your 2-year-old is wrangled in like, and you actually get to be present for the moment. You know, we talked about that deeper why of making these memories forever and keeping it. You actually get to be in that moment as opposed to trying to look at it and see.

We recently had to say goodbye to our family dog and we had booked a photo shoot that day with our family, with our kids because I knew, you know, I could take the photos and I could have that to look back on, but I actually wanted to be present and be in that moment. I threw an ice cream party, we had ice cream and the kids were just enjoying it. And I had to tell you, Bruce, it was just the most joyful thing to look back on. And we have these photos that are beautiful that I will print because they're stunning, but also when I look at them, I'm in them, I'm not distracted, and I'm transported back to that moment in a way that like a selfie or a random passerby, it just doesn't do that in that same way.

Bruce Croxon (25:21): So it's funny, the pictures have been with us a long time and you know, I just think sort of thinking about the joy that you get, it's like music, you know, when you associate music to a certain time, a photo of a certain time and sometimes you just never get tired of looking back on them and the memories they evoke. So I totally relate to that.

Listen, we're getting close to wrap up here. This has been fascinating. Any stories or memorable moments? That was a great one with the dog. Anything else that sticks out? And then just to wrap, there's a lot of our listeners that aspire to grow outside the country and do what you guys have so successfully done. Any other insights for our audiences or advice as they contemplate going outside the borders and trying to grow an international business?

Nicole Smith (26:08): One that's fresh in my head is yesterday I met one of our customers who has done 44 photo shoots over the last like nine years with his partner. And you know, he was sharing with me how and the tea, he just happened to be in Victoria, so we all went for, to go do drinks together. And this is someone who I've seen in photos for years, talked to over email and DMs but hadn't actually met. And so he would, you know, Brad was sharing with us how the photos that he's gotten from Flytographer really helped bring him back to that moment, that feeling all over the world, but also that our meeting all these photographers, like he's made friends in all these cities, all over the world and they're all in his phone. And he said basically like, FLytographer helps us remember our stories. And I said, Brad, that's actually our mission statement that we just like updated and it was so crazy to hear it from his words himself.

And our mission is like, we help people remember their favorite stories forever. So hearing that from our like top customer just yesterday in my hometown, it just reminds me of like the reason our why for being here and you know, it's really, really special. So yeah, really, really grateful for that.

And then in terms of like advice for people that are starting, I think the big thing that I always say is, you know, make sure you're solving a problem that really matters to people and that they're willing to pay for. And you don't need to be an expert or have everything figured out. I'm not a photographer so I started this business knowing nothing about photography, just was wanting to solve this problem. And I think it's just getting out there and doing and trying and then iterate because you're gonna learn every time.

So if you sit in the corner planning until it's all perfect or you worry that you don't have enough expertise, there's like YouTube, there's Google, there's no better time to start a startup in my opinion. And I think it's really all about getting out there, solving a meaningful problem, having a good why behind it, and then just try, try, try and learn, learn, learn, iterate, iterate, and focus on delivering a great experience to your customer. And I think that'll take you really far.

Bruce Croxon (28:15): And as we've discussed, I mean, having somebody like the EDC to back you up can't hurt, especially if you're going outside the country. It sounds like it's been a great partnership. Well, listen, guys, really appreciate you taking time out of your busy day. People will enjoy this story for sure. Everyone can relate to a good travel photograph and I think you guys have found a way to, you know, to really cut through and deliver something that people really appreciate and obviously solving a problem because who, who doesn't like to be in the photograph themselves? So thanks very much, really appreciate it and have a great rest of the day and I look forward to connecting in the future.

Nicole Smith (28:51): Thanks so much Bruce. It was fun.

Paulina Cameron: Thanks, Bruce.

Bruce Croxon (28:54): Thanks for joining us today on the Export Impact Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and leave us a review on your favorite streaming platform. Until next time.